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Kurt
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Испанцы о Франко (не белорусская тема, но...)
« В: 03/16/04 в 00:14:05 »
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Как о Гражданской войне пишут испанцы.  
 
С форума  
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=19821
 
(Помещено в белорусский раздел со сравнительно-историческими целями)
 
 
Javichu
Location: Spain
---------------------------------------------------------------
Есть определенные сложности с тем, чтобы объяснить, как испанское общество сейчас относится к Франко...  
В первую очередь, мы говорим не о человеке, но о режиме, который существовал 40 лет и был диктаторским, имея и плохие, и хорошие - да, хорошие стороны.  
Во-вторых, мы должны учитывать, что большое количество испанцев ничего не знают о Франко просто потому что были слишком малы (он умер 25 лет назад) или родились после его смерти.  
В-третьих, в последние 28 лет мы получали совершенно невернуб информацию о предмете. Мне кажется, что это была попытка предотвратить возрождение фашистских движений в Испании, но считаю, что она была ошибочной "Народ, который не знает своей истории, обречен на ее повторение".
Наша демократия достаточно сильна, чтобы беспристрастно изучать историю...
И боюсь, что мы повторили образ действий Франко в течение его 40 лет (правление): "Победитель пишет историю"  
(пока конец перевода)
 
So we have different points of view:  
 
The nostalgics:  
 
Most of them older people that lived well under the Dictatorship.Not necessarely Fascists...Just remember that La republica also commited crimes .My Grandfather and Greatgrandfather saved their lifes thanks to Franco´s troops and the uprising.Their sin : Being accomodated people in a little town. They were going to be shot without trial when Nationalist troops occupied the town (This was July 18th) that was an important Railroad Junction.After that and being truly apolitical they lived happily under Franco´s Government...Thus my Mother is a "Nostalgic"  
 
The "Other Nostalgics": Also old people that being Republicans suffered prosecution under "Franquismo" .Also their relatives...They can´t forget and forgive but who could blame them? Some of them were shot some were imprisoned after the war,some later.Some lived hidden for 40 years and many had to go to exile in foreign countries.  
 
The middle aged: We were born with Franco but started our life with Democracy (I was 8 Years old when Franco died) some are Right winged some left winged but most of us are Democrats.If you ask a Leftist he won´t probably speak in favor of Franco but also a Rightist won´t...There´s a kind of fear -We still hear in our minds Franco´s speeches.I even remember when he came to my city and how we made the Fascist salutation -that this could give Dictatorship back.Just remember we had an aborted Military Uprising in the 80´s .  
 
The younger: Born after Franco was dead they dont´t know anything about him except the few they learn at school...And they don´t mind.  
They were born in Democracy and our fears aren´t theirs.Unless they have some interest in History ...Or they belong to some kind of Neo-Fascist movement but even so they refer more to Nazism that to Franquismo.  
 
Nowadays there´s few if any support for "Franquismo" -If you mean the ideology that supported Franco´s Dictatorship for 40 years.Anyway it was a mixture of a "Soft Fascism" with components of a Western Capitalism and few ideological basis.I think it was mostly a way to mantain the power of Franco along the time and after he died it lost its reason to exist-We have Neo_Facist groups most of them linked to football supporters.But also most of their members don´t know anything about things like "History" or "Ideology" and they are just looking for a pretext to get drunk then fight with similar Leftist groups (AnarchistHuh?Don´t think so.They aren´t hungry) and destroy everything they can until Police arrives  
 
I like to think I´m one of the few impartials .But I have a very personal way of see things and growing in a family with Pro-Franco parents an extreme Left Winged Brothers (That actively fought against Franco in their last years) may have helped  
 
Anyway this is just my personal opinion and you should take it for what it is...Cheers  
 
+++
 
Capitán
Location: Spain
------------------------
Hello,  
This is a good question.  
 
How we see Franco?.  
It´s difficult to answer, and the answer depends on our family, our grandfathers and grandmothers, and how they pass through the war, and later in the Spain under Franco goverment.  
 
Each one of us have one story that it´s different from the others.  
One of my grandfathers fought in Franco´s army. In Teruel and other battles. They ussualy tolked about the italian troops.  
My other Grandfather was living in Madrid and was too young but he usualy try to avoid enlistement to fight with the Republica.  
 
One brother of my grandfather was arrested months before the war.  
My grandfather try to help, but Republicans kill him, because he was fascist. Then when the war become, my grandfather travel out of madrid and reached franco troops. Then he was volunteer of Fanco´s army.  
My grandmother was republican and she lives in Madrid all the war.  
Nothing happens with her after the war.  
 
Nowadays... It´s difficult to say, but young people have a great luck of knowledge about Franco, Spain, the war, the battles.... More of then thinks that Franco was a bad guy. A Dictator, and Fascist, not much more.  
I know that my family lives good under Franco, but other peoples lives very bad.  
 
A lot of people fought in Fanco´s army, and beleive in their words, altough now is not correct to say this.  
More than 60 years had passed, but it´s very difficult to talk about it.  
And it´s better that you don´t say that your grandfather fought with Franco. But my grandfather do it. And other uncle, later go to Russia with the Blue Division.  
He is very old, but in the weddings, he allways goes with his cross of iron (2nd class), and i admired him.  
I admired those men who fought for their own ideas....  
Regards,  
 
 
 
+++
Tim Smith
Location: UK
 
Are the Spanish people grateful to Franco for keeping them out of WWII?  
 
After all, if the Communist-dominated republican regime had won the Civil War, Hitler would probably have invaded Spain after conquering France in 1940, on ideological grounds and to get at Gibraltar.
+++
 
 
 
Javichu
Location: Spain
----------
ARE YOU JOKING?  
Sorry but I can´t see any sense in your question...Yes ,he kept us out from WW2 but that was because HE had declared a War that left the country in a disastrous state. HE had declared a war that costed 1000000 lifes in a country with 13000000 inhabitants not counting the many that had to go to exile and couldn´t return in many decades.HE stablished a Dictatorship that lasted 40 years,supressed Civil Rights, pursued any opposition and killed many of them...  
 
Spain in 1939 had just ended her own war and couldn´t afford another war ,War expenses from both Republican and Nationalist Government had to be payed (Yes France ,England and other "Democratic" countries that had given a scarce and mostly useless help for a few time to the Republic before the non Intervention Pact was signed and that after that abandoned the people of Spain to their ill fate asked for their money to a devastated Spain were people was dying from starvation...Good friends .Weren´t they? ) Factories destroyed or sabotaged by the retreating Republican troops,harvest were lost and peasants dead or imprisoned ...Famine spread all over the country Tuberculosis,Typhus and Dyphteria were common (My father nearly died fom typhus as late as 1941)  
 
Do you think Franco was an idiot? He was a really inteligent politic .Only a Dictator? You think that a minor one from the 30´s but his Dictatorship lasted more than any of the other European Dictators from his era ...Even more than Salazar.And went ahead for many years with the active support of many "democratic" countries like US or UK.  
 
He didn´t want to go to war alongside Germany because Spain couldnt have supported another war.Because he was aware that Germany couldn´t win that war (He kNEW that US will in the end join the allies ) and because he had the secret hope that after he war Western Nations will have to fight against Russia and he will be vindicated ...  
At last he was not so wrong.  
 
He sent the Division Azul to partially cover the war debt with Germany and retired the unit when he knew war was lost...years before Hitler realised himself he had lost the war  
ANd that was ALL he gave to Hitler  
 
:lol:After WW" Cold War started and Spain became "El Bastion de Occidente","La Reserva Espiritual de Europa" a non-Communist country in one of the most strategical locations of Europe...And American help started to arrive.AND HE KNEW HE HAD WON WW2 Smiley Smiley Smiley
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Kurt
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Рекетес (католические добровольцы)
« Ответить #1 В: 01/11/05 в 14:40:51 »
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Терции Христа-Короля и Алькасара входят в Валенсию.
 
Первый ряд за Распятием - очевидно, офицеры.
В характерных наваррских красных беретах с кисточкой.  
 
« Изменён в : 01/11/05 в 16:42:41 пользователем: Kurt » Зарегистрирован

З павагаю,
Kurt/Lenwe the Green Elf

"Мы же не можем оставить Людям лес неприбранным. А тут дело пяти секунд - был орк, стал экологически чистый труп... "(R2R)
"There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole." (Murphy's Law of Combat)
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